chrome wire wheel failure

[Phil Read]

What has cause this? when i removed the wheels the heads of some of the spokes dropped out, they have sheared off. They are just over 2 years old done about 7000 miles. 

[Phil Read]

another photo

[Ralph Whitaker]

Good Grief!  I read something somewhere about Triumph not wanting to supply chrome wires as there was something to do with the process weakening the wheels. However I have a set of Chrome wires that I bought cheap as they were rusty and a few of the spokes needed replacing, I then had the wheels shot blasted and powder coated and have had no bother with them. I will be checking them next time they come off though.  Mine are ex TR6 72 spoke wheels so about as strong as you can get. I suppose the shock of hitting a pothole could do that kind of damage as they are all grouped together. Good job you found out now rather than half way round a fast bend.

Ralph

[RogerH]

Hi Phil

the cone seating area looks dry and rusty - has it been wobbling and causing pulsing tension on the spoke heads.

 

Roger

[RogerH]

2 minutes ago, Ralph Whitaker said:

Good Grief!  I read something somewhere about Triumph not wanting to supply chrome wires as there was something to do with the process weakening the wheels. However I have a set of Chrome wires that I bought cheap as they were rusty and a few of the spokes needed replacing, I then had the wheels shot blasted and powder coated and have had no bother with them. I will be checking them next time they come off though.  Mine are ex TR6 72 spoke wheels so about as strong as you can get. I suppose the shock of hitting a pothole could do that kind of damage as they are all grouped together. Good job you found out now rather than half way round a fast bend.

Ralph

Hi Ralph

there was a concern that Chroming the spokes would weaken them but nowadays they use stainless Steel on a Chromed wheel.

 

Roger

[Phil Read]

hi Roger seats were tight. I serviced the car before i went to Saltau and didn’t notice any problem. Since then i have done 1750 miles. I was servicing it again before I go to Le Man when the heads of the spokes dropped out. I check the tightens of the spinners regularly with a bash of the lead hammer. 

[Ralph Whitaker]

Just had another look at the pictures and I see there are broken spokes on the outer part of the hub  too that I missed the first time. I wonder if it was a batch of brittle spokes.

Ralph

[Phil Read]

6 minutes ago, RogerH said:

Hi Ralph

there was a concern that Chroming the spokes would weaken them but nowadays they use stainless Steel on a Chromed wheel.

 

Roger

I have just been told by an engineer i know that stainless steel is not an ideal material for spokes,

[Phil Read]

Just now, Ralph Whitaker said:

Just had another look at the pictures and I see there are broken spokes on the outer part of the hub  too that I missed the first time. I wonder if it was a batch of brittle spokes.

Ralph

Yes both outer and inner spokes have failed on 3 out of 4 wheels. It has been suggested that they had not been tensioned correctly and evenly when manufactured/

[Ralph Whitaker]

Most seem to be made in India now, even the Dunlop ones.  Has this persuaded you to go back to steel wheels or alloys ? I`ve been hankering after a set of Minilite type alloys, not really period I know even though my car is 1960, but a dam sight easier to clean.

Ralph

[RogerH]

5 minutes ago, Phil Read said:

I have just been told by an engineer i know that stainless steel is not an ideal material for spokes,

Hi Phil,

 that is an easy get out. What in fact is ideal? 
Most plain steels do not like Chroming and most customers long for shiny spokes.
Stainless Steel is more than adequate to be used in our lightly loaded wheels. 

Poor adjustment is a sensble cause for your problem as this would easily cause a pulsating tensile load.

 

Roger

 

[RogerH]

Indian products, just like Chinese, can be of top qualilty - but you must specify and pay for it

If you want cheap, they do that also.

 

Roger

[Phil Read]

2 minutes ago, RogerH said:

Hi Phil,

 that is an easy get out. What in fact is ideal? 
Most plain steels do not like Chroming and most customers long for shiny spokes.
Stainless Steel is more than adequate to be used in our lightly loaded wheels. 

Poor adjustment is a sensble cause for your problem as this would easily cause a pulsating tensile load.

 

Roger

 

I bought them three and a half years ago. they have done 7000 miles. They are Tubeless so you cannot see the spoke heads when the tyre is off, although they have the same tyres on that were fitted when new.. I used to have alloys on but found it a pain to change the wheels hence I changed to spokes.

[RobH]

What is that brown stuff that Roger mentioned, on the cone seat in the last photo Phil?  Is it grease?   

[jerrytr5]

I don't think this should be a surprise. Wire wheels get broken spokes.

Jerry

[stuart]

16 hours ago, jerrytr5 said:

I don't think this should be a surprise. Wire wheels get broken spokes.

Jerry

Not normally as many as that in such a short time unless being raced and rallied.

Stuart.

[Casar66]

On the way home (nesr Cologne) from Brands Hatch, I noticed a spongy feeling while driving near Brussels. I pulled over and checked: all the inner spokes on the left rear wheel had snapped at the heads. The right side was fine. I put on the spare tire and kept going. Ten minutes later, that same spongy feeling returned. This time, all the inner spokes on the right side had snapped. I didn’t have a second spare tire with me. I spent the night behind the guardrail in Belgium.

The wheels were chrome-plated deep-dish rims with, I think, 72 spokes. Never again will I have spoked wheels. 

Edited June 6 by Casar66

[RogerH]

16 minutes ago, Casar66 said:

On the way home (nesr Cologne) from Brands Hatch, I noticed a spongy feeling while driving near Brussels. I pulled over and checked: all the inner spokes on the left rear wheel had snapped at the heads. The right side was fine. I put on the spare tire and kept going. Ten minutes later, that same spongy feeling returned. This time, all the inner spokes on the right side had snapped. I didn’t have a second spare tire with me. I spent the night behind the guardrail in Belgium.

The wheels were chrome-plated deep-dish rims with, I think, 72 spokes. Never again will I have spoked wheels. 

What size tyres were you running.

 

Roger

[stillp]

5 hours ago, stuart said:

Not normally as many as that in such a short time unless being raced and rallied.

Stuart.

Or walloped with the copper mallet when tightening!

Pete

[Ralph Whitaker]

With regard to these posts, I have been out in the garage this afternoon with the TR up on the wheel free lift. I have been round all the wheels tapping all 72 spokes with the end of a small spanner listening for the ring. All have a nice ring to them, not a dull clunk as I would expect to hear if one was broken, so I am assuming they are all OK.  Bearing in mind that these wheels were second hand rusty chrome ones there were about 4 broken spokes when I got them, but all were broken inside the adjusting nut on the outer edge of the wheel, not on the inside as has been indicated on here. They were blasted and coated after repair and have since done over 10 thousand miles on Yorkshires pot holed back roads without 1 spoke breaking. I can only assume that there has been a batch of wrongly made spokes at some point in the past. If stainless steel, there are several grades of stainless, and maybe the wrong grade was used. I should imagine that the spokes have a cold pressed end formed where they lace into the hub and this has caused stress at that point. Entirely conjecture, I am no expert, but to hear now 2 catastrophic failures of a safety critical component I think it warrants an investigation by the supplier/manufacturer, and a warning to all with chromed wires.

One thing that comes to mind is were both cars IRS, I know one was a TR6. Just thinking if heavily loaded for example, there can be a significant change in rear camber and I wonder if that parts extra stress on the wheels.

Ralph

[rcreweread]

Regarding wire wheels, I have spoken at length about the quality of modern wire wheels with Richard Skinner of Tudor Wheels of Cadnam in the New Forest - his view is that older OE wire wheels are a much better quality than new ones. He obviously specialises in refurbishing older ones, so arguably he would say that but he is a very professional and well respected bloke, so I don't doubt that.

I have had a lot of wheels refurbished by him over the years, They are cheap and readily available second hand so I've always assembled a couple of sets and let him choose the best ones to refurb - once done, they are difficult to distinguish from brand new wheels, but at a fraction of the cost- in the course of acquiring and selecting a lot of used wheels, I have never seen the amount of spoke failures shown in the above posts - that leads me to think there must be a serious quality issue at stake here - don't get me wrong, many of the wheels have broken spokes to start with which can easily be replaced if not too extensive, but nothing like the extent shown in the above photos.

If you want wires, save yourself a load of money, get a selection of used ones and get them refurbished and feel safer

cheers Rich

[harlequin]

I have chrome 72 spoke wire wheels on both my TR3 and TR6 and they are all at least 20 years old, the only slight problem I've had was a couple of broken spokes on the TR3 when I bought it 10 years ago

I replaced the broken ones and absolutely no trouble since 

George 

[Phil Read]

4 hours ago, RogerH said:

What size tyres were you running.

 

Roger

Hi Roger 165/80 15. I notice the wheels are 60 spoke where as my 3 and 4 have 72 spokes. 

Edited June 6 by Phil Read

[RogerH]

Interesting 165/80 should have a comfortable life.

Roger

[Stagpowered]

I have a set of the centre laced wires on my TR250 with a 250bhp Stag V8, I think they are 70 spoke. I got them because I was fed up with the amount of punctures I was getting running tubes in the 72 spoke ones I used previously.

I have never liked the idea of chrome wheels, mostly because of the supposed embrittlement caused by the chroming process. Stainless can be a bit prone to cracking too, but there are many grades available and I am not a metalurgist.

Can't say I have ever had any structural problems with any of my painted wire wheels , I am using 195/65x15 tyres, though I tend to swap them after 3 sets of tyres as they are usually cosmetically challenged by then. Most of the cosmetic trouble has been caused by track days and red hot brake dust eating the paint or powder coat.

I was going to use my old set for track days, but I have decided to go for a set of Minilite replicas with some softer compound tyres. I thought I might be asking a bit much of the spokes with softer tyres. This post has definitely made up my mind about the wheel choice.

Neil