TR4A "Unhappy" Sound After First Starting New Rebuild

[My Dads Car]

Tried starting my TR4A rebuilt engine for the first time... Several tries over the course of three days yielded one start that stalled about 90 seconds in, then unable to restart. Following day I tried turning the engine by hand and heard this:

Then, I pulled the valve cover and saw this:

 

Thoughts? I have reset the gaps on the rockers and still hear the sound...

Any help is greatly appreciated!

-Jamie

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Forgot to lock/tighten the valve rocker adjuster nuts after adjusting the clearances of the rocker arms to the valves?

Missing lock nuts.

 

Did not set Valve clearances individually using the ‘9’rule ?
 
ie.  No1 fully open set no8 to correct clearance.   (1+8=9)

no2 fully open set no 7 to correct clearance (2+7=9)

and so on.

until no8 fully open set no1…….

 

What valve to rocker clearance are you using and what cam is fitted?

Edited June 17 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[My Dads Car]

Hi Peter- work was done by someone else, I should have checked before trying to start the engine...

I set them to .010 now, using the '9' rule but will add locknuts and re-set clearances.

Cam is original to the car

Thanks- Jamie

[Z320]

Valves not adjusted at all by „someone else“ ( what was the ageerment?)

—> ignition very likely will also be not adjusted?

—> with the work done somewhere else there will not be oil in the engine!

Ciao, Marco

Edited June 18 by Z320

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

6 hours ago, My Dads Car said:

Hi Peter- work was done by someone else, I should have checked before trying to start the engine...

I set them to .010 now, using the '9' rule but will add locknuts and re-set clearances.

Cam is original to the car

Thanks- Jamie

Good progress Jamie.  Who assembled the engine?  I'll make a point of not using them.

Looking at the rocker gear it looks filthy dirty. It also has no sign of oil coming out the little lubrication holes in the rocker arms.  Very slight evidence of oil on No8 rocker.  Confirm the oil is getting up to the rockers before you decide to go for a long drive.   You can prime them through the rocker shaft locating screw hole in the rear rocker pedestal. (pump engine oil in with an oil can)  Dont drop the screw or loose it and be sure to refit!

As Marco says.  Has the engine got oil in it?

 

 

Edited June 18 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[RogerH]

Hi Jamie,

that is not impressive.   Is the missing lock nut still in the engine somewhere?

Pour oil over all the rocker parts before starting as the oil supply through the rocker shaft is very low usually.

Roger

[Dale Moore]

Looks like both locknuts are still there 

Makes you worried what else might be not tightened up 

Dale

[trchris]

If the fundamentals are poor it doesn’t instil confidence the rest is of a good standard l certainly would be contacting the person responsible for the rebuild 

Chris

[My Dads Car]

29 minutes ago, trchris said:

If the fundamentals are poor it doesn’t instil confidence the rest is of a good standard l certainly would be contacting the person responsible for the rebuild 

Chris

I have been in touch, though he hasn’t replied since I shared the video with the valve cover removed.

Any idea what that clunking noise could be? I turned the engine with the plugs out a few turns and things seemed ok… still hear that clunking noise when I turn the engine by hand. 

[Motorsport Mickey]

Those valves are not a happy sight, with nonexistent lock nuts on the tappets, and one missing completely.
 

See how the rocker arm spherical screws are misplaced located on the edge of the push rods ? If they stayed there under compression by the camshaft they could be opening the valves by as much as a 1/4” extra, enough to take the valves into piston interference area.

I would start from scratch, remove the entire rocker shaft and inspect the tops of the valve stems, drop a straight edge across them, see if there are any which appear to be much further down than the others. If you find one, suspect that it now may be bent, the bend preventing the the valve from opening and closing correctly. Remove the spark plugs and turn the Engine over, have you still got that noise ? If you have a compression gauge, try turning them engine over on the guage and make a note of the compressions, if you have a bent valve it will likely leak and give poor compression on that cylinder, proving that’s where a bent valve may lurk. Let us know how it goes.

Mick Richards.

[My Dads Car]

50 minutes ago, Motorsport Mickey said:

Those valves are not a happy sight, with nonexistent lock nuts on the tappets, and one missing completely.
 

See how the rocker arm spherical screws are misplaced located on the edge of the push rods ? If they stayed there under compression by the camshaft they could be opening the valves by as much as a 1/4” extra, enough to take the valves into piston interference area.

I would start from scratch, remove the entire rocker shaft and inspect the tops of the valve stems, drop a straight edge across them, see if there are any which appear to be much further down than the others. If you find one, suspect that it now may be bent, the bend preventing the the valve from opening and closing correctly. Remove the spark plugs and turn the Engine over, have you still got that noise ? If you have a compression gauge, try turning them engine over on the guage and make a note of the compressions, if you have a bent valve it will likely leak and give poor compression on that cylinder, proving that’s where a bent valve may lurk. Let us know how it goes.

Mick Richards.

Hi Mick, thank you very much for the detailed response! Dry compression test results are:

Cylinder #1 = 130  psi

Cylinder #2 = 130 psi

Cylinder #3 = 130 psi 

Cylinder #4 = 125 psi

Just for confirmation: I numbered the cylinders from front to back.

-Jamie

Edited June 18 by My Dads Car

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

Ticking noise with cover fitted probably the rockers touching the underside of the rocker cover.

Cylinder pressures all about the same, so that’s good.   Not particularly high though.  They might rise if done ‘wet’ 

Edited June 18 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[My Dads Car]

Thank you, all, for the support and advice thus far. 

This video gives a good example of what I am hearing: a constant mechanical "clunking" sound when I hand-turn the engine. I also included a few seconds of the engine being turned over by the starter.

Anyone recognize/have encountererd this sound?

Thanks- Jamie

Edited June 20 by My Dads Car
typo

[RobH]

That 'clunking' sound could be the ring-gear teeth catchIng on something.  Has the bell-housing lower closure plate been fitted the wrong way round ? 

[Bfg]

Jamie, sorry to hear of your woes.  The sound is sorta familiar .. as the groaning / binding of plain bearings where there's no oil.  And there's loading on the rocker-arm bearings from the valve springs.   Importantly, when the engine is turned over on the starter I see no oil dribbling out of the rocker arms oil-holes. there should be.  Also in your second video showing the undone adjusters, those rocker arms are dry.   

Good news is that I hear no clicking as the engine was turned over, which can indicate a bent valve no shutting flat, or else a bent valve stem sticking in its guide.  

If it were mine, I'd take a few steps back by removing the rocker shaft assembly, and checking the torque of the cylinder head nuts (slack each off by 1 flat (1/6th of a turn) or thereabouts and re-torque them in sequence.   They may be alright, but for my own piece of mind I'd need to check.  

I'd then check the rocker arm shaft.  I seem to recall that some can be put in back to front (end to end) whereby the oil-way into the rocker shaft is in the wrong place, so oil is not pumped through the shaft to each rocker arm.     

Without the rocker assembly in place - I'd turn the engine over by hand (plugs out) to again listen.  The valves cannot be opening because there's no rockers, and if the noise is still there then you know it's not coming from the top end.   Turning the engine over on the starter should prime the oil throughout the engine and its coming out (under the rear post if I remember) will be very apparent.

I'd remove and check for straightness each pushrod. simply rolling each across a flat surface, like a kitchen top, will be a reassurance that they are all straight.  I'd also check that the ends of each pushrod are tight.    

I'd then check the rocker-shaft posts are in their original positions. I don't remember if mine were numbered.  But if one is in the wrong position they may not be in line ..and so are bending the rocker shaft.  Again it's been a long time.. but I believe the front and rear posts are different and so obvious, but the two middle ones are interchangeable.  I'd be sure that they were in the correct order by pulling all the rocker arms and springs off  (..after first noting / photographing their reassembly order) and then refit the posts with the rocker shaft to ensure all is in line as those nuts are correctly torqued down.    

I'd also check the bearings in each rocker arm, specifically that the bearings are not turning in the rocker and their oil-way drillings are aligned to allow the oil through.  When new bearings are fitted these holes are often not quite in line.  They're something like a 1/16" drill ..if I recall.  It doesn't need to be bigger, nor part constricted .. the standard size is correct for engine longevity.

Reassemble everything with engine oil, correctly torque and set the gaps, and turn the engine over by hand again. The oil you've used during reassembly should have gotten rid of the groaning noise.  Turn the engine over on the starter motor (still no plugs in) and check the oil is coming out of each and every rocker arm.  Check the oil pressure on the gauge. 

NB. I'm writing this from memory, so please forgive me if I've got something wrong.  It should be pretty apparent as you go along.  It's a chore to have to do all this again but for piece of mind, and elimination of potential errors, I'd go through it all.  Be aware that there may be more than one mistake. 

Hope that's helpful, 

Pete

p.s.  I'd also recommend modifying the battery hold-down bracket &/or the battery terminals, as it appears to be just 1/8" away from an electrical short across those terminals.  

Edited June 20 by Bfg

[Lebro]

1 hour ago, RobH said:

That 'clunking' sound could be the ring-gear teeth catchIng on something.  Has the bell-housing lower closure plate been fitted the wrong way round ? 

My first thought also, starter motor catching on ring gear when hand turning, or maybe an over long bolt ? could not hear it when spinning on the starter motor.

Bob

[Dale Moore]

Watching the last video when the engine is being turned by hand, the clunking seems to be in time with the rockers jumping bit by bit. There's also a noticeable click when the rocker assy.  jumps 20°or so. Anyone else see this ? Perhaps something to do with the timing chain?

Dale

 

[My Dads Car]

1 hour ago, Lebro said:

My first thought also, starter motor catching on ring gear when hand turning, or maybe an over long bolt ? could not hear it when spinning on the starter motor.

Bob

I wanted this to be the case soooooo bad!

Unfortunately, after removing the bell housing cover plate, and leaving it off, the sound persists.

-Jamie 

Edited June 20 by My Dads Car

[RobH]

Is the ring-gear maybe catching on the starter itself then ?  That might explain why it doesn't happen while cranking. 

[My Dads Car]

2 minutes ago, RobH said:

Is the ring-gear maybe catching on the starter itself then ?  That might explain why it doesn't happen while cranking. 

I recall the metal gasket/spacer being not completely flat when I installed the starter. I cleaned it up nicely and re-installed starter with gasket/spacer as is, thinking the pressure of the starter bolted to the bell housing would even it out far better than anything I might do on my bench… bad idea?

I must say, the sound doesn’t make seem to be coming from the lower back of the engine. I am waiting for my teenage assistant, errr… son, to get out in the garage and spin the motor while I listen to it with a long screwdriver touching various parts of the engine. Hopefully, that will give me a better idea of location for the sound. 
 

-Jamie 

[RobH]

As Dale said above, the only other thing which might make a noise like that when turning the engine slowly by hand is probably the cam chain - maybe the links rattling on the tensioner ? 

[My Dads Car]

I’m getting ready to drain the radiator… 

Can I open the timing chain cover with the engine in the car? Also be able to do the adjustments as needed? Or should I just resign myself to taking off all engine accessories and start putting my engine lift back together sooner rather than later?

Thank you, all. for your help!

-Jamie

[Z320]

I had the timing cover off to change and check the chain with the engine in the car.

I have some videos on YouTube about the issue.

The chain tension you can check without any effort: rock the crankshaft back and forth, this must be without any empty way of travel.

[My Dads Car]

1 hour ago, Z320 said:

I had the timing cover off to change and check the chain with the engine in the car.

I have some videos on YouTube about the issue.

The chain tension you can check without any effort: rock the crankshaft back and forth, this must be without any empty way of travel.

Narrowed it down timing chain issue based on listening to various parts on the head, block, and timing cover with a long screwdriver while hand turning engine. The front pulley has no play in it, if that’s what you mean by being able to rock the crankshaft back and forth.

Thank you for the offer of videos, Z320. Please send links!

-Jamie

[Z320]

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