TR4A "Unhappy" Sound After First Starting New Rebuild

[Z320]

 

[My Dads Car]

Remember that old game Clue? The one where you had to guess who the culprit was, where they committed the crime, and the tool they used to do it? Something like "Colonel Mustard in the Library with a Candlestick..."

Well, the answer for my mystery turned out to be "Lord Lucas in the Garage with a Starter Motor...

The rattling/clanking sound was coming from the starter! I pulled it and hand-turned the engine: smooth-as-silk! No sounds, no vibrations, nothing but what you would expect.

I recently purchased this starter from Moss (the first shop I sent the car to lost the original starter I had during the teardown...)

Is this the correct unit?

Now, the big question: what would cause this issue with the starter?

Here's a video of the gear: anything look suspicious to anyone? Do I need a second spacer, or not need the one I have?

 https://youtube.com/shorts/KLbCqZybVVM

Thank you all so very much for helping me get the problem figured out. Hoping the solution is less difficult to find!

-Jamie

 

Edited June 21 by My Dads Car

[Z320]

Hi,

it could be the issue your bendix gear doesn’t come free.

To avoid this you have to measure the gap between the starter gear on the flywheel and the bendix gear.

Shims must be added (or removed) to get the correct gap.

Easy to check with the gearbox out, a bit difficult if it is installed.

Please see my video on YouTube 

For a wuick check you can remove one to get more gap.

Ciao, Marco

 

Edited June 21 by Z320

[Z320]

from the workshop maual:

"out of mash" clearance, all (Bendix) types, except "Eclipse" type = 1/8"

 

[Lebro]

I did think it sounded like the ring gear catching on something.

Bob

[Z320]

The video is not aviable for me

[My Dads Car]

56 minutes ago, Z320 said:

The video is not aviable for me

It should be available now!

[Z320]

The starter gear must be pressed by a spring away from the starter motor.

The ecceleration of the shaft pulls the gear against the motor and in the starter gear.

On your video it lays slack on the motor flange.

Has this been in pieces?

Ciao, Marco

test this, please

 

[stuart]

7 minutes ago, Z320 said:

The starter gear must be pressed by a spring away from the starter motor.

The ecceleration of the shaft pulls the gear against the motor and in the starter gear.

On your video it lays slack on the motor flange.

Has this been in pieces?

Ciao, Marco

test this, please

 

Your right Marco, looks like its missing that spring to hold it out from the body.

Stuart.

[My Dads Car]

The starter gear is stuck where it is currently seated. It spins with the entire shaft but that is all. 

This is a newly rebuilt unit, courtesy of Moss Motors. 

Assuming I must take the unit apart, it looks like I need a special tool to disassemble the shaft, once I remove the split pin- correct?

Edited June 21 by My Dads Car

[Z320]

Something has been wrong assembled.

Better you don’t touch it and complain about the scrap at Moss.

Yes, you need a special tool, but it’s „easy“ to make one.

I used a small piece of u shaped steel and „big“ a carpenter c-clamp

Edited June 21 by Z320

[Rob Salisbury]

Hi Jamie,

              As you are turning the bendix by hand at around 15 to 20 seconds there is the clunk coming from the starter, something's wrong and it needs to go back to Moss for a refund or replacement.

Cheers Rob

[Andy Moltu]

Bent valves sound unlikely- there would be disparity in the compressions between cylinders.

[RAHTR4]

Jamie,

Regarding your request for details of the starter motor originally used I can advise the following :

The Lucas Equipment and Service Parts Catalogue of 1967 provides the following information :

Starter Motor

Model – M418G

Part Number – 25550B

Also, all Lucas parts were hard stamped with the week number and year in which they were produced – an example being 27 67 which would confirm it was produced during the 27th week of 1967.

Finally, out of pure curiosity I have to ask why you have fitted a washer under each of the tappet locking nuts, something I have never seen this done before..????

Regards, Richard

[My Dads Car]

20 hours ago, RAHTR4 said:

Jamie,

Regarding your request for details of the starter motor originally used I can advise the following :

The Lucas Equipment and Service Parts Catalogue of 1967 provides the following information :

Starter Motor

Model – M418G

Part Number – 25550B

Also, all Lucas parts were hard stamped with the week number and year in which they were produced – an example being 27 67 which would confirm it was produced during the 27th week of 1967.

Finally, out of pure curiosity I have to ask why you have fitted a washer under each of the tappet locking nuts, something I have never seen this done before..????

Regards, Richard

Hi Richard,

Thank you for the reply.  I put split washers (spring washers? lock washers?) on under each of the tappet locking nuts based on some of the earlier comments from members in this thread. I did take a look at the workshop manual and saw no washers underneath the nuts in any of the photos but I used them anyway, based on my recent experience. Do these washers create a problem I am unaware of?

-Jamie

[My Dads Car]

Since the starter was installed in the car I fear Moss are not going to give me much of a refund/exchange for this unit… I should have noticed this issue before installing it at all.

I’m wondering if this unit is salvageable? I found a source for the missing Pinion Gear Return Spring (and the sleeve it fits over) along with a video of how to disassemble the bendix. Right now the pinion gear is stuck hard against the flange - any suggestions as to how I might release it?

- Jamie 

[RobH]

Split (spring) washers do not work Jamie - despite being very widely used.   The tappet adjustment locks because of the friction between the lock-nut and the top of the rocker arm. If you put a washer in the way, which can rotate beneath the nut, the locking action is much reduced. 

This is what NASA says about spring washers, in their fasteners design manual:

"The lockwasher serves as a spring while the bolt is being tightened. However, the washer is normally flat by the time the bolt is fully torqued. At this time it is equivalent to a solid flat washer, and its locking ability is nonexistent. In summary, a Iockwasher of this type is useless for locking." 

[stuart]

2 minutes ago, RobH said:

Split (spring) washers do not work Jamie - despite being very widely used.   The tappet adjustment locks because of the friction between the lock-nut and the top of the rocker arm. If you put a washer in the way, which can rotate beneath the nut, the locking action is much reduced. 

This is what NASA says about spring washers, in their fasteners design manual:

"The lockwasher serves as a spring while the bolt is being tightened. However, the washer is normally flat by the time the bolt is fully torqued. At this time it is equivalent to a solid flat washer, and its locking ability is nonexistent. In summary, a Iockwasher of this type is useless for locking." 

Also a lot of the cheap spring washers when tightened up hard will eventually split out from under the nut.

Stuart.

[Z320]

30 minutes ago, My Dads Car said:

Since the starter was installed in the car I fear Moss are not going to give me much of a refund/exchange for this unit… I should have noticed this issue before installing it at all.

I’m wondering if this unit is salvageable? I found a source for the missing Pinion Gear Return Spring (and the sleeve it fits over) along with a video of how to disassemble the bendix. Right now the pinion gear is stuck hard against the flange - any suggestions as to how I might release it?

- Jamie 

Hi Jamie,

you better use no grease there because it can glue after some time, I used gun oil.

IIRC the manual demants graphit.

Ciao, Marco

[RobH]

45 minutes ago, My Dads Car said:

. Right now the pinion gear is stuck hard against the flange - any suggestions as to how I might release it?

 

If the starter pinion is stuck,  it has possibly run off the end of the big helix.  I'm not sure you can retrieve that except by being a bit brutal - holding the end of the shaft and rotating the pinion forcibly until it re-engages. 

[My Dads Car]

32 minutes ago, RobH said:

Split (spring) washers do not work Jamie - despite being very widely used.   The tappet adjustment locks because of the friction between the lock-nut and the top of the rocker arm. If you put a washer in the way, which can rotate beneath the nut, the locking action is much reduced. 

This is what NASA says about spring washers, in their fasteners design manual:

"The lockwasher serves as a spring while the bolt is being tightened. However, the washer is normally flat by the time the bolt is fully torqued. At this time it is equivalent to a solid flat washer, and its locking ability is nonexistent. In summary, a Iockwasher of this type is useless for locking." 

Thank you, Rob. I have seen this "flattening effect" many times, thinking it was just part of the overall design! I will remove the washers. I don't see a torque wrench setting for these nuts; is there any you might suggest?

Thanks- Jamie

[My Dads Car]

43 minutes ago, Z320 said:

Hi Jamie,

you better use no grease there because it can glue after some time, I used gun oil.

IIRC the manual demants graphit.

Ciao, Marco

Hi Marco - I just released the pinion and, voila, the spring is there and spins as it should. It does seem a bit dry… I’m hoping that is why it was stuck up against the flange. I can source gun oil nearby, I think. Any suggestions as to how I should apply it?

[RobH]

I don't think there is a given torque figure for the locking nuts.   They don't need to be fiercely tight - moderate effort on a standard length spanner is fine.  

 

[Lebro]

56 minutes ago, My Dads Car said:

Thank you, Rob. I have seen this "flattening effect" many times, thinking it was just part of the overall design! I will remove the washers. I don't see a torque wrench setting for these nuts; is there any you might suggest?

Thanks- Jamie

To use a torque wrench (with a 7/16" socket) you would not be able to stop the adjuster rotating with the nut, I find it essential to hold the adjuster still with a screwdriver while tightening the nut, hence only a spanner (or special tappet adjusting tool) will do.

Bob

[Z320]

I love my Balistol spray can,

pretty sure there is gun oil („sewing machine oil) in spray cans aviable at the UK too

Edited June 24 by Z320