Front axle camber adjustable?

[Z320]

Only from the TR4A to TR6 the chamber can be adjusted by shims.

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

16 minutes ago, Z320 said:

Only from the TR4A to TR6 the chamber can be adjusted by shims.

Thank you for that clarification. Marco.  Others who come later will be helped.

[Casar66]

Well, guess why did I post my question here in the TR6 section?

This morning I have checked my "shim-situation" at the front. Left side 2 shims, right side 3 (= 4 & 6 per wishbone).

But it is the right side (driver side) which lack camber. That occures after changing the vertical link last year. 

So I would add another shim, means 2 x 4 at the right side. Ist that critical?

And, by how much does an additional shim change the camber?

[Z320]

22 minutes ago, Casar66 said:

But it is the right side (driver side) which lack camber. That occures after changing the vertical link last year. 

I guess you also fitted a new trunnion - and this could be cross drilled different 

[Steve 286]

The shims are 1.6mm thick and adding one shim front and back will add about .4 degree negative camber the side you are doing you could remove the shims you have at the moment and make a shim from a piece of 3mm steel then add the shims you have taken out to get the camber you want 

 

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

27 minutes ago, Z320 said:

I guess you also fitted a new trunnion - and this could be cross drilled different 

Or bore the trunion larger and create an eccentric bush to place in there that can be rotated to move the trunion in or out from the chassis.   Maybe even broach a hexagon  a use an eccentrically drilled hexagonal bush.   This gives more positive location 

Edited July 6 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[Casar66]

no, haven´t change the trunnion. Did not even touch ist. 

 

 

[Casar66]

1 hour ago, Steve 286 said:

The shims are 1.6mm thick and adding one shim front and back will add about .4 degree negative camber the side you are doing you could remove the shims you have at the moment and make a shim from a piece of 3mm steel then add the shims you have taken out to get the camber you want 

 

I have 3 shims right know, that is around 4,8mm. I can try to get a 5mm thick one und add 2 old ones? Now my camber ist +-0, the wheel stands more or less vertical. But the tyre is worn out at the outside a litte more. But it is a 205er tyre on a centerlock 5,5" rim with spacer. I drove this combination for about 18 years, never had that before.

Any idea where can I get a thicker shim?

 

[Steve 286]

As you have 3 shims at the moment you could use a 4 or 5 mm piece of steel then add your shims to get the camber, but I would check the tracking before you start taking it apart as that will wear the tyre as you describe and the tracking will need redoing after you get the camber set to where you want it 

 

[rcreweread]

Guys - if anyone is looking for shims, front or rear, I have a whole boxful of them. They have been blasted and any rust removed and then painted with anti rust paint. Please see photos attached

They are much cheaper than the main suppliers prices, at £2.50 each for the front ones and £2.25 each for the rear ones - postage is on top

Get in touch either by PM or direct contact if you are interested.

Cheers Rich C-R 

[Casar66]

But just standard shims?

 

Another Idea, maybe ist sounds weird:

I am wondering what would happen if I installed the fulcrum rotated 180 degrees? I’d expect that the wishbone mounting points would then move closer to the center of the car, making the camber more negative. Maybe it would be enough that you could do without the shims altogether? 
Does anyone know how much of a difference rotating the fulcrum might make?

EDIT: 

I just found out something: on early TR6 models (as well as TR4 and TR5), the fulcrum is actually installed the other way around—that is, with the curved side facing outward.  If my replacement frame comes from an early TR6, then it could be that it was always installed incorrectly, but since the old vertical link had a different shape, nobody noticed. And it was enough to just adjust the lower shims.
Is that possible?

Don´t get me wrong, but I've changed just the vertical link, nothing else and the camber has changed. And the right wheel sticks out a little further. Never noticed that before. 

 

 

 

Edited July 6 by Casar66

[Hamish]

6 hours ago, Drewmotty said:

Both of my cars have slotted wishbones and neither have ever slipped. They are very lightly loaded but can be adjusted and then tack the washers in place to prevent slipping. 

Do you have to add wheel spacers Andrew 

With my alloys, the inside rim runs very close to the top wishbone with the 4(a)? Set up

[Z320]

1 hour ago, Casar66 said:

But just standard shims?

 

Another Idea, maybe ist sounds weird:

I am wondering what would happen if I installed the fulcrum rotated 180 degrees? I’d expect that the wishbone mounting points would then move closer to the center of the car, making the camber more negative. Maybe it would be enough that you could do without the shims altogether? 
Does anyone know how much of a difference rotating the fulcrum might make?

EDIT: 

I just found out something: on early TR6 models (as well as TR4 and TR5), the fulcrum is actually installed the other way around—that is, with the curved side facing outward.  If my replacement frame comes from an early TR6, then it could be that it was always installed incorrectly, but since the old vertical link had a different shape, nobody noticed. And it was enough to just adjust the lower shims.
Is that possible?

Don´t get me wrong, but I've changed just the vertical link, nothing else and the camber has changed. And the right wheel sticks out a little further. Never noticed that before. 

 

 

 

„The other way around“ is the discussion since the TR4A and a wrong or unclear sketch in the workshop manual. 😂

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

52 minutes ago, Hamish said:

Do you have to add wheel spacers Andrew 

With my alloys, the inside rim runs very close to the top wishbone with the 4(a)? Set up

That’s why the threaded part of the top ball joint bolts have to point forward.

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

1 hour ago, Casar66 said:

But just standard shims?

 

Another Idea, maybe ist sounds weird:

I am wondering what would happen if I installed the fulcrum rotated 180 degrees? I’d expect that the wishbone mounting points would then move closer to the center of the car, making the camber more negative. Maybe it would be enough that you could do without the shims altogether? 
Does anyone know how much of a difference rotating the fulcrum might make?

EDIT: 

I just found out something: on early TR6 models (as well as TR4 and TR5), the fulcrum is actually installed the other way around—that is, with the curved side facing outward.  If my replacement frame comes from an early TR6, then it could be that it was always installed incorrectly, but since the old vertical link had a different shape, nobody noticed. And it was enough to just adjust the lower shims.
Is that possible?

Don´t get me wrong, but I've changed just the vertical link, nothing else and the camber has changed. And the right wheel sticks out a little further. Never noticed that before. 

 

 

 

Buy yourself or borrow a digital angle gauge with magnetic base.   Lidl sell them occasionally or this gives you an idea of what you are after.   https://www.allendale-metrology.co.uk/collections/angle-measurement/products/wixey-digital-angle-gauge-with-magnetic-base

Level the chassis.

Establish ride height by measurement to a fixed common surface or the angle of lower wishbones before you start.  

Assemble the suspension both sides but do not install the springs and shocks.

Attach gauge to disc and move the suspension on each side up and down through its full range of movement.  
Compare Left and right.   Adjust chassis bracket shims to get both sides at same operating angles as the full range of movement is tested.

Confirm both suspension camber angles are the same at the static ride height you established at the start of this process.

Fit springs and shocks.

Drive and enjoy your TR.

You can do a similar exercise with a laser marker pointed forward onto a sheet of graph paper and plot bump steer.

Edited July 6 by BlueTR3A-5EKT

[Casar66]

thanks, but the problem lies elsewhere: I can't adjust the camber on both wheels identically without making permanent changes to parts and/or buying new ones. That's because the standard equipment does NOT provide the necessary adjustment options.

[Casar66]

2 hours ago, Z320 said:

„The other way around“ is the discussion since the TR4A and a wrong or unclear sketch in the workshop manual. 😂

so it is right that the fulcrum of early TR6 is installed exactly the other way around?

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

35 minutes ago, Casar66 said:

thanks, but the problem lies elsewhere: I can't adjust the camber on both wheels identically without making permanent changes to parts and/or buying new ones. That's because the standard equipment does NOT provide the necessary adjustment options.

Just to do a test not for road use.

swap all the suspension left to right. Right to left.   Does the problem swap sides?  
 

If so it could be bent suspension parts.  

If it does not the chassis could be bent

[BlueTR3A-5EKT]

people with the later cars say….

Top inner fulcrum on TR4A-250-5-6 fits like this.

[stuart]

31 minutes ago, BlueTR3A-5EKT said:

people with the later cars say….

Top inner fulcrum on TR4A-250-5-6 fits like this.

That is correct, earlier i.e. TR2 to TR4 have them the other way round to clear the top mounting rubber for the shock absorber as the turret top is different.

Stuart.

 

Edited July 6 by stuart

[Drewmotty]

4 hours ago, Hamish said:

Do you have to add wheel spacers Andrew

72 spoke TR6 wires with standard length studs and 1/4” spacers behind the splined  adaptors. Plenty of clearance. 

[michaelfinnis]

5 hours ago, Casar66 said:

?

EDIT: 

I just found out something: on early TR6 models (as well as TR4 and TR5), the fulcrum is actually installed the other way around—that is, with the curved side facing outward.

Don´t get me wrong, but I've changed just the vertical link, nothing else and the camber has changed. And the right wheel sticks out a little further. Never noticed that before. 

 

 

 

I believe that applies to all 6’s not just early ones.

If the old vertical link had a worn thread (presumably why it was changed) then play between the link and the trunnions could affect camber. Removing the play by fitting a new link would then result in different camber to previous.

The trunnion usually wears before the vertical link, being made of brass as opposed to steel. If the vertical links threads were worn then the trunnion would likely need replacing too.

Mike.

[Hamish]

47 minutes ago, Drewmotty said:

72 spoke TR6 wires with standard length studs and 1/4” spacers behind the splined  adaptors. Plenty of clearance. 

👍

[Casar66]

19 minutes ago, michaelfinnis said:

I believe that applies to all 6’s not just early ones.

If the old vertical link had a worn thread (presumably why it was changed) then play between the link and the trunnions could affect camber. Removing the play by fitting a new link would then result in different camber to previous.

The trunnion usually wears before the vertical link, being made of brass as opposed to steel. If the vertical links threads were worn then the trunnion would likely need replacing too.

Mike.

trunnion was and is fine. the old vertical link had nor worn out thread. It was just damaged in the area of the inner bearing. That was the reason for changing. 

I just checked it again with the water scale:

I think I have two issues to sort out:

 

1. The camber on the right wheel is more positive than that on the left wheel. And this is despite the fact that there’s an extra shim in the lower control arm.

 

2. The right wheel also sticks out 1 cm further than the left one. This is either due to sloppy work by the shop when they replaced the frame (today I’d do that myself), or the frame, the body, or both aren’t dimensionally accurate.

Number 2 is just a minor cosmetic issue,

but number 1 is more important in my eyes, because the tire is wearing down on one side. In terms of handling, though, I can’t complain.

[Z320]

4 hours ago, Casar66 said:

so it is right that the fulcrum of early TR6 is installed exactly the other way around?

I never told this and I don't know, I only own a 4A